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Michael Moran [00:00:00] This is manifest density. Hello, everyone, and welcome to this edition of Manifest Density, your host Michael Moran here, and we are going to explore the intersection of COVID 19, global business society and technology today. Manifest density is brought to you by the global smart building and ESG data company Microshare. Unleash the data. Today, we’re going to talk technology. In fact, we’re going to talk about the Internet of Things, and I’m very, very pleased to have today. Stacy Higginbotham, who is the curator and writer of Stacy on IoT really, really well circulated newsletter. So it’s a real pleasure to welcome you to manifest density.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:00:43] Thank you for having me. I’m really excited.

Michael Moran [00:00:46] Stacy, we follow you here. Microshare fairly religiously. I get your newsletter, forwarded it to me all the time. And so it’s it’s overdue that I reached out. Had you on the program,

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:00:58] you could sign up for it directly.

Michael Moran [00:01:01] Yeah, I know I do. Actually, I get it. But you know what that’s like? I get about 350 emails a day. It’s overwhelming. How does one become a journalist who covers the Internet of Things? What was your journey?

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:01:13] Oh, it was meant to say time consuming because I’ve been a tech journalist for probably about 20 years, a little over that now. And I started out covering semiconductors because I was was actually a reporter for a local Austin paper, and semiconductors was a big business. So I did that and then I went into networking and then I went into wireless and cloud computing and databases. And around 2012, all of those things started to come together in what we were calling the Internet of Things. And we were really excited about it. And I had. Basically, all the technical elements, so it was kind of fun for me because all of a sudden I went from this person who babbled on about spectrum policy and like new wireless standards at parties to somebody who could talk about really cool gadgets. And so like, my stock went up tremendously, and that is basically how I started covering the Internet of Things. So for the sake

Michael Moran [00:02:12] of those who listen to this podcast and don’t always dove into the technology, give us a quick definition from you from apart from on high, I should say, of what the Internet of Things is and how it’s kind of evolved over the last 12 years or so.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:02:31] Yes. And before before I got into it, it was called M to M. So I’m not going to say that it was like the Internet of Things has always been here in some ways, or as as long as there’s been wireless connectivity and computing. So basically, my definition of the IoT is when cheap computing, ubiquitous wireless and cheap sensors all came together in a way around it. It started out around smartphones was the renaissance of this. But all of that comes together and it makes the invisible visible. And I am so excited about this opportunity because we can do so much with the information if we can just figure out how to grab it cheaply, how to behave ethically with it, and how to deliver insights that can really help us. I look at it is helping us fix the climate. I think it’s really important to helping people live better, maybe more fulfilling lives. I don’t want to go that far and really just help us be the best versions of ourselves. So that sounds really super optimistic, but it’s also very concrete.

Michael Moran [00:03:45] Yeah, I mean, so I mean, I try really hard, except for the sponsorship slots to keep microshare out of this podcast. If you listen, you know that. But this is so directly relevant to what we do because in effect, what we’ve tried to do is take the complexity out of iOttie and make. My CEO Ron ROCs likes to say our customers don’t even know how to spell iOttie. So ultimately, the idea is that you have a an outcome rather than a technology product. Do you have data that’s telling you whether the air quality is sufficient or data that’s telling you how many people are in a room or whether the water temperature is is being calibrated properly so that you don’t get Legionnaires disease or, you know, those types of data feeds that never existed before, you know, and in the world that we operate in. You know, I like to say, you know, we take these what we’re once inert brick and mortar assets and we create vital signs we create. We show you that actually, this is a living breathing entity. This this building, it’s got air, it’s got a circulatory system, it’s got a plumbing system, so it’s got a digestive system. So ultimately, we can kind of track the condition and the operations and the wellness of the environment. And that’s huge and think. And it also has that, as you referred to this incredible sustainability application in terms of knowing how you’re treating the people in your space or knowing how much energy you’re using and whether it’s used efficiently, things like that. I mean, is this something that was it? It is. Those are the kind of things that were imagined in the beginning or has this kind of evolved with things like the pandemic and recessions and.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:05:31] Things have definitely evolved with the pandemic. I think in the beginning, I mean, if we look all the way back, I actually just had someone on my podcast who created the term IoT all the way back in 1985. So his name was Peter Lewis, and he was the one of the founders of Cellular one. And basically, he he back in 1985, was like, Hey, we’ve got this thing called the ARPANET. I’ve got mobile phone connectivity now. It’s like, Let’s let’s sign up traffic lights and air conditioning and building and power grids, all to the cellular network so they can give their status. This is his vision 37 years ago. And I think we’ve always needed something like this, but it has been so hard again because sensors were expensive, wireless connectivity was expensive. The computing for the analytics was expensive, so I think we’ve always needed more information because that’s what we do as people, right? We just didn’t have a way to get it economically and feasibly. So you could only monitor super important things.

Michael Moran [00:06:43] OK, Stacey, we’re going to take a break, perhaps a superfluous break since I’ve already talked about that sponsor. But to hear from our sponsor? OK, I am back with Stacey Higginbotham, who covers the Internet of Things from I o to T. Stacey, we’re talking about how it’s evolved over the years and the ubiquity of it potentially to create data in all sorts of places and spaces. But of course, that also means it’s a big ubiquity, makes it an enormous target for cybercrime and hacking and all sorts of mischief. The IoT, it strikes me, had a pretty bad reputation in its early years because people were just hooking it up to their corporate networks. There’s this famous story about the the fish feeder in a tank in some kind of an aquarium.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:07:34] I call this the fish. The fish tank that was heard around the world.

Michael Moran [00:07:39] Oh yeah. Tell us that story. It’s funny.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:07:42] So this is this is probably I want to say it was from a Verizon security report, either in 2008, I think it was 2013, and a casino in Vegas had a fish tank monitor and that was on there. We’ll just call it an OT network because it was just a sensor. Don’t work, but it somehow connected to their I.T. network. So hackers were able to get in through the fish tank and then get into the rest of the casino network. A similar example that people always talk about is target. Their big data breach, and I don’t. It was a while ago, probably same timeframe. Those hackers came in through the H-back system and then ended up in their point of sale system. So yes, we used to stick all kinds of things. We’re like, Oh, I just put it on the internet, or let’s just buy a network DVR and things. I mean, it sounds so ridiculous. But even as far back as 2013, when we were writing about this, we had to tell people to stop using hard coded passwords in their, you know, routing equipment, which now I would look at somebody like why? That’s the craziest thing ever. So we’ve gotten a lot more sophisticated on the security side. I think what we’re realizing, though, is as we try to lock this down, that we don’t have the right security models in place. So we’re starting to see them evolve like zero trust security and and that’ll be really important going forward. But also equally important is getting rid of all that other stuff. We can’t actually leave that on the network. It’s yeah.

Michael Moran [00:09:17] So I had just moved this weekend to a new place and had to set up my Wi-Fi. And lo and behold, the password was password and the username was user. And the only thing they could have done to make that less secure was perhaps translate that into Russian. Make it easier. I mean, it’s astounding. But so we’ve taken this approach to IoT security, which is very common now, which is you don’t expect anybody to use their internal network. Of course, you don’t want to your treasury anywhere near an IoT device. What you do is you create a LoRaWAN or Zigbee or some kind of internal, you know, low way, low bandwidth, low net cost, low end with network that essentially is completely disconnected from any kind of IP or anything that’s that sensitive and run everything. There is kind of a closed loop. And, you know, I always think of that as early days of the internet. I was at MSNBC.com, which was the kind of pioneer at NBC News on the internet, and I was wondering why I couldn’t get Andrea Mitchell and all these high profile correspondents to, you know, pay attention to what we were doing because we were breaking news on their beats. And it turned out that NBC News didn’t allow them to go on the internet. It was astounding. They had the old, you know, dumb terminal approach to things because they were afraid that CBS would hack in and find out what’s on nightly news.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:10:54] Oh my gosh, I can’t imagine being a reporter and not having access to the internet.

Michael Moran [00:10:58] Well, I’m an old man now, but there was a time when the internet didn’t exist, and I was, you know, one of the evangelists at NBC to try to get them to open the channel for their journalists. So they obviously did, and now they’re very good at it. But it reminds me that approach. It’s almost like we’re going back to the future, right? We’re creating now many networks to kind of quarantine the corporate network away and make the the IoT devices more secure. Is that a long term solution?

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:11:31] I have no idea, but I will say this, we have historically just very broadly speaking, try to make the world flat in, you know, if you think about technology in the internet at large, you think about like Facebook before it was super evil. They were to say, Hey, everybody can be who they are on the internet. No layers, very flat. We all talk to one another. That doesn’t go well. I think we all want this, this utopia where everything’s connected and it’s easy. But I think adding that friction is probably important because humans are not all awesome people that you want to sit next to for a long period of time. Right? Or trust with your secrets and data. So I think this is a start. I actually did a story about it that just ran today on the web site was in last week’s newsletter about the end of general purpose wireless networks, which talks actually to the specific thing, which is, we’re going to have many, many, many networks and we’re going to have to have ways to bring data from one to the other in ways that feel secure. And that is like way above my pay grade figuring all that out.

Michael Moran [00:12:45] Yeah, and that’s about mine as well, though, that’s precisely where the name of the company I work for came from Microshare, there’s actually this incredibly complex back end that shares data in a very specific, carefully curated way with different types of stakeholders, with each of whom are assigned different permissions and ownership levels. And, you know, microshare had that has lived with the curse of being out in front of the market and in some cases, because who’s going to buy that right? Right now, it’s there’s a data market data market out there, but it tends to be all about, you know, advertising and people selling your data without your really knowing it.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:13:32] That’s one of my greatest disappointments is that that we’ve we had a chance that we still do. If you look at technology, you know, think about the launch of broadband back in, I don’t know, 2000, when we start having dial up, right? It enabled all these companies and the underlying technology was not the key. It was what you did with it. And then we built the business models around that tied to advertising. And when I look at that and I see that coming to IoT, it’s frustrating because the data is both more personal. So it feels much more insulting to get an ad for the fact that you were, you know, I don’t know, Stacey, you only walked 2000 feet yesterday. You need to eat a salad, you know, just something that feels a little too intrusive and possibly judge. And then this idea that we could do so much more with it if we could figure out a different business model and we enabled trust. And this is trust from security, but trust also from the data that people have. So I feel like if we actually want the IoT to be what it can be, we need to dump the ad business model. And it’s really hard to get away from that kind of highly lucrative flow of cash, but we got to figure it out.

Michael Moran [00:14:53] Yeah, and, you know, regulators are not going to do it because they were they would have. All right. Well, let’s hold on, pause there and take a break to hear from our sponsor. OK, I’m back having a fascinating conversation with Stacey Higginbotham, the journalist who covers the Internet of Things. Her newsletter is really a must read for iOttie, and I hope you guys will go and sign up. Stacey, I wanted to talk about a little bit about the kind of confluence of COVID, which from our perspective, it made. It made the kind of nice to have internal environmental sensors a must have in some cases. So where we find that we’re talking to a whole new group of people, not just facilities managers, not just it, but people like H.R. and people like CFOs who were wondering how much of their real estate portfolio was actually being used and which ones to get rid of which which buildings are sick buildings. You know, they’re they’re looking for data. They’re looking for ways to make these big strategic decisions. How, you know, we also same time you’ve got this much larger trend that hopefully will outlast the pandemic on sustainability and environmental social governance practices, where IoT is once again quite relevant. You can create data streams that help you prove out your sustainability initiatives or help you report on how you’re performing or what are you seeing out there. That’s innovative. That’s interesting.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:16:31] Oh, so many things. So you’re right. COVID COVID definitely accelerated people’s IoT deployments for a couple reasons. One. Everybody was going remote ray. So now you had to have the tools for them to be able to access whatever their job used to be, and that was a forcing function on that front and on the health care front. What I think is also relevant, and I don’t know if it’s because companies started seeing the data from like people counting or whatever they were doing with, we’ll call it digital transformation. But basically, I’m just thinking, hey, slap at a bunch of sensors around in building up some applications that can use that sensor data to help make decisions, right? So once they did that for COVID, they saw potentially other things they could do with it. The other thing that I think is kind of tied to this and I don’t know which is the cause of which is the effect is basically what I’m saying here is we had a really brutal series of suburbs in California with wildfires, which drove a lot of people to think about things like indoor air quality and made climate change in your face, in your face, I guess. And when that happened, we saw people recognizing the fact that their buildings could be more efficient and tied with that Kobe data that they were already getting or data tied to like people in the space, that sort of thing. We got a big push for sustainability in buildings. And I think. There’s a stat and I can’t remember where it’s from, but it’s basically like 40 percent of our carbon emissions come from buildings. I see that stat on every other press release right now because it is a very top of mind for both people buying stuff and for people trying to sell stuff. And I’m super excited about this because one, I think it is going to be great for energy efficiency, but to it gets us beyond asset tracking as a viable use case for the IoT. So I am all for anything that moves us beyond those first few things that people were really excited about

Michael Moran [00:18:44] so that the early so yeah, that’s unpretty is that stat, I’m pretty sure.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:18:50] OK, there you go.

Michael Moran [00:18:51] Thank you. Principles of responsible investing. It’s the United Nations principles, and that’s where I think that comes from. And it’s it’s a kind of mash up of commercial real estate at 29 percent. You can tell I’ve quoted this before, and the rest of it is construction and development. So, but yeah, when you put it together, it’s 40 percent of global emissions. That’s gargantuan, right? Yeah, that’s not picking on the couch. But ultimately, what about you know, what we’re finding is that the kind of sustainability iOttie one to one point, oh, really wasn’t about sensors. It was the technology was really web crawling spiders that looked at your utility bills and kind of uploaded that information to make it convenient. It really didn’t change anything. There’s no way you’re going. You could you could do that and still burn inefficiently, you know, from now until the next century. But that was kind of the 1.0, the 2.0 to me, which is really not there yet. We are doing it. But I think once again, this is microshare out ahead of the market is in the social component of ESG, the social meaning, you know, how people are treated, whether buildings are responsive, whether they’re safe, whether you know the quality of the air and the quality the water in the building is is being properly maintained, although those calibration kind of things that were taken for granted before the pandemic are now susceptible to IoT. And that could be a really powerful accelerant of, you know, not necessarily climate. Not everything in ESG is climate, remember, but of, you know, making a humane, safe, you know, performing workplace.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:20:42] Sure. Now I’m curious what you mean when you say a safe, humane performance workplace, because that implies that prior to this they weren’t.

Michael Moran [00:20:51] Well, I don’t think anybody who has ever worked in an office building and felt like they needed a Snickers bar and a cup of coffee at 4:30 realized that they were being poisoned by carbon.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:21:05] Got it. OK, so

Michael Moran [00:21:07] so this part of the you know, the reality that the pandemic has made people realize indoor spaces are not simply big, open empty places, there’s things around you, there’s the humidity, there’s the temperature, there is carbon buildup, there are particulates in the air. Right, right. The extent to which you can know, for instance, for sure how many times a conference room was used today and whether it was cleaned. Right. Those are all things that are susceptible to data. And so ultimately, how many people are in the cafeteria right now? Do you really want to go in and waste a half an hour standing in line for coffee? Or you want to wait 20 minutes? Look at your phone app and say, Oh, there’s no one there. I’m going now. And these are the kind of elements that I think I think the pandemic has kind of raised awareness of the value of these kind of things.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:22:03] I think the economics associated with this information have changed both the importance and the economics. So and I say that because of COVID, because you suddenly have possibly fewer workers, but you also recognize that keeping your workers means keeping them safe or keeping them at their desks means keeping them uninfected. So you have to track high quality indoor air, right? You have to make sure that’s a thing in prior to that. There were companies doing this sort of thing, but they were they were. A lot of them were in Europe. Some of them were in China because air pollution is a bigger deal over there. But basically, they were sorry. But with COVID, it suddenly became important to companies to have that. Tracking and facilities management internal to their operations in some of this gets to the bottom line with technology, as we have a lot of things available to us, we can track all kinds of crazy stuff, but a lot of times we don’t care about it until we have to. And that usually is based on some sort of economic incentive and for good or ill. I think that’s what happened with COVID.

Michael Moran [00:23:24] So we’re seeing now. I want to stay with air quality because it’s an interesting use case, which we’ve seen several instances where a company recognizes the value of knowing about the quality of the air. And that’s partly because productivity falls when the air quality is bad. But it’s also because people now, as you said, retention and recruitment. People want to know these things because they don’t want to spend most of their week sitting in a poisonous room, right? So but what do you do? This has been the great conundrum with air quality. All right. Let’s say you have an air quality monitoring system installed in your building, and there’s persistent bad air in one area and you’ve tried all the easy things opening windows, you know, tweaking the facts. Nothing’s working. That’s the I think that’s the great conundrum. It’s the warnings there. The economic incentive then becomes take the damn things out. We don’t know, and we don’t want to know.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:24:28] Well, so in I think I think that’s kind of the challenge with iOttie without a use, without a clearly defined use case is that you’ll start seeing things that you don’t necessarily understand or you don’t want to have to understand because fixing them is going to be expensive or a problem. And we actually see this with things like air quality monitoring outside of the outside, not just inside. So it’s very well known that schools generate a lot of air pollution because parents come by and pick up their children and leave their engines idling. And to solve that problem, you would have to either. I mean, they tell people to turn off their engines, but you might also have to make Bible school leagues. And so in your example of having bad indoor air quality in a specific area, the onus then becomes from detecting the problem to figuring out why it’s happening and then fixing it in. That’s not a technology issue, right? That’s a business or operational or societal issue. And I think a lot of times when we talk about technology, we forget. Even technologists who are building it, they forget that they’re just a tool and we have to have all these other things around it to actually do what the tool is supposed to do.

Michael Moran [00:25:53] What do you think the role of regulators are in all of this? I have seen there have been a smattering of reports about New York City. I think in the UK, in the school systems there now, at least checking air quality doesn’t mean they’re monitoring it. But I think they do a test now and then what do you think we’re going to see a world where regulators get involved in this?

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:26:18] I hope we do. And I say this because right now we have so many environmental or OSHA type regulations that we can’t actually. Right now, they’re they’re checked by an inspector coming. If you look at like the EPA, they actually notify their factories before they show up in the factories. They’re like, Oh, the EPA is coming to check our emissions tomorrow. Let’s fix that. Oh, I think the same way we’ve managed things like cold chain, especially around food production or drug production, we could do that for environmental something in the air quality sensing. We just have to have the rules and then the stuff in place. And so I think I honestly do think it. I don’t know why. Well, I do know why. So we should have sensors in place on, you know, any sort of manufacturing plant that the EPA is monitoring, right? And they should have a line into that sensor data so they can track it on an ongoing basis. Why don’t we have responsive fines when things get out of whack? It’s not impossible. Businesses are already doing it themselves. So I think the regulatory side, we have the laws, but we might be better off just moving to enforcement of the existing laws. And then, yes, I do think we need more laws around the types of things. We’re going to hold people accountable for the types of outcomes that get generated. And it’s really complicated.

Michael Moran [00:27:56] Yeah. So, Stacey, I wanted to ask one last question. What is the coolest? iOttie use case you’ve seen in the last year, what really kind of made you go wow

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:28:11] in the last year on the enterprise or consumer side,

Michael Moran [00:28:16] I just pick one. It doesn’t matter, but enterprise will be fine. But consumers crucial to.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:28:25] Sorry. This is a hard one, because pandemic timing messes everything. I think the coolest thing I have seen and I think this was in 2020, but I’m not sure. Our. Density is a company that makes people motion tracking sensors for piercing density is a company that makes motion tracking. No density is a company that’s made people counting sensors, and they do it using some proprietary algorithms and some infrared and thing I think is so cool about it is it’s very accurate and it’s also privacy first. And I’ve seen a lot of very cool things coming on the kind of RF sensing front that I think have a lot more potential than video cameras for basic tracking in ways that do not infringe on people’s privacy. And I’m super excited about that.

Michael Moran [00:29:27] Yeah, we we went down that road as well with with Bluetooth based contact tracing wearables, and it was precisely because it didn’t collect PII, which is personally identifiable information that it was successful. And you know, the other thing because the alternative with the smartphone tracking and we didn’t like that for all sorts of reasons. We have clients on the world where smartphones are not necessarily ubiquitous. Plus, you’re a manufacturer, you can’t have a smartphone on the floor because it’s firstly, it’s dangerous because it’s distracting and they the batteries run out. And so it defeats the whole contact tracing concept. So, yeah, we did. We did a bunch of stuff that was and I learned a new word sue. Anonymized. So as opposed to being anonymous, which means that you could never be uncovered, so to speak. The idea of contact tracing is if somebody reports a symptom, they can do a reverse database query and then unmask the various wearables to know who has been exposed to this person over the last week and tell them to get tested. So there had to be somebody who had the ability to find out, OK, what badge was John wearing? Because John needs to get tested before it comes back to the office. So it’s, you know, we’ve had zero shutdowns in any of the places we deployed it. And but that was a major issue for us. The PII was, you know, you you download something onto your smartphone and your boss is not just tracking you work is tracking you everywhere. Right? So that’s not cool. And no one wanted it. No one would download it.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:31:12] Yeah.

Michael Moran [00:31:13] There were all sorts of challenges that that led to the success of our product, which was universal contact tracing, especially in manufacturing environments where you just you can’t send people home and still make revenue. So that was a really important kind of mid-pandemic success for us and got a lot of attention. And still, interestingly, because of the persistence of COVID where it’s being renewed, what we thought was like a one year battlefield innovation turns out now people were in their third year of the contracts thanks to Delta and on the Crown, which, you know, we frankly would rather see this going away. It’s not a huge chunk of our revenue, but

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:31:59] are they pulling in other data or using it for it? Because I think there’s once you see broadly like where people cluster, I think there’s some interesting opportunities around scheduling lunches or, you know,

Michael Moran [00:32:10] we are actually there’s new applications often, you know, these are the brainchild of the client. So in the nursing home industry in the UK, we’ve done a several year study with contact tracing wearables in 16 nursing homes and that’s been now expanded to 64. They call them care homes in the UK. And so, yes, this was very valuable to know when someone had symptoms who had they’ve been in touch with. But then the the nursing home administrators realized, OK, it’s also prevented several people from wandering off campus, which, you know, the whole U.S. version of the silver alert someone with dementia. So they get an alert when somebody breaks the defense. And then the other part of it was they also noticed that in some nursing homes, the contact tracing wearables that were assigned to the staff were sitting in a break room and a suspicious circle. Turns out they were playing poker most of the day. And so this got the the kind of unpleasant nickname of slacker tracker. Now that’s that’s just kind of funny in the in the general world. But in a nursing home, part of the the therapeutic care of an elderly person is human contact. So the nursing home owners were realizing they’re not even going and making rounds and saying hello to these people, and that means they’re being basically storehouse. So that’s become, you know, a really significant development project for us, and I think it’s going to be, you know, part of the future. And again, it doesn’t collect anybody’s PII. But the it is possible to know how badge number eight three three three four is being worn by Joe Schmo, right? And that’s part of the the value of it. So there comes a point where privacy, if you’re going to get value and efficiency, there has to be transparency in that interaction. Sorry. There has to be transparency in that interaction, but ultimately there is a trade off with any technology.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:34:34] It’s true, although I don’t expect that level of privacy at work, so I’m OK with slacker trackers.

Michael Moran [00:34:43] Well, we used to have slackers trackers in the 20th century. They were called your boss and they just kind of would show up over your shoulder every once in a while and say. Why are you reading about the New York Yankees right now? That’s the kind of stuff that happened all the time. So now we’re just getting efficient next year.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:35:01] You’re outing yourself here. I like it. All right,

Michael Moran [00:35:06] Stacy. It’s been an enormous pleasure talking to you have gone way over. But because this is my podcast, it can be as long as I want. So ha.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:35:14] And because I’m on the podcast, on my podcast runs an hour, I mean, what did you think was going to happen? There you

Michael Moran [00:35:19] go. All right. So I wanted to give you an opportunity to tell the audience where they can follow your work and how they could sign up for our newsletter.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:35:29] Sure. Thank you. Y’all can find me at Stacy on IoT SI.com, or you can find and download the Internet of Things podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

Michael Moran [00:35:42] That’s great. And of course, you know you can learn more about how microshare has helped get the world’s safety back to work with ever smart suite of products. Sorry. With our ever smart suite of products, ever smart solutions, boost efficiency, enable cost savings and bring safety and reassurance to people inside your building portfolio. I would like to also remind you you could sign up for the podcast on our website. WW W Microshare Daddario and you can also find it on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, iHeartRadio. Every place where you can find audio, you can probably find this once again. Stacy, thank you for joining us. It’s been a real pleasure.

Stacey Higgenbothom [00:36:21] Thanks for having me.

Michael Moran [00:36:22] And that’ll do it for this week on behalf of all our global employees. This is Michael Moran at Microshare saying So long be well and thank you for listening.